Comments for Bible-Thumping Liberal

Comment on True Religion Does Not Demand that You Believe in Heaven and Hell by Tim Attwell

Tim Attwell — Sat, 18 May 2013 22:31:58 +0000

Hi Tomv52. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are not theories. That Jesus Christ died on the cross because of human sin and as a loving action in response to human sin and that his resurrection opens the way to new life for people who are dead both figuratively and literally are not theories. They are defining articles of Christan belief. The different ways that we explain how the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ reconcile us with God and each other and bring about new life for us are theories. Fact is, even the New Testament has many different ways to explain it and many are very different from each other. Cheers, Tim

Comment on Heresy: My First Time by Ron Goetz

Ron Goetz — Sat, 18 May 2013 20:51:27 +0000

John, you’ve said a lot here. Let me reply to your first comment. I wrote:

“I began my journey as a strict, fundamentalist, first-born “good boy.” This was as carnal as anything else.”

You said, “I have no idea what you mean by your sentence, ‘This was as carnal as anything else.’”

Does my statement remind you of anything you’ve read or heard from Paul’s epistles?

Comment on True Religion Does Not Demand that You Believe in Heaven and Hell by Ron Goetz

Ron Goetz — Sat, 18 May 2013 20:43:17 +0000

Tom, you made numerous unsupported assertions just now. Let's focus on just one of your confident assertions. "The bible is God's word. God's teachings are black and white." If God's teachings are black and white, then explain to me how the following three quotes from the Bible are black-and-white. What do they mean, and how are they black-and-white? First: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, That he not be wise in his own eyes. (Proverbs 26:4-5) Tom, we are commanded to do two opposite things. How is this black-and-white? Second: "What do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" (I Cor. 15:29) Tom, how is this verse black-and-white? Explain it to me, please. Third: "He who eats my flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks My blood abides in me, and I in him." (John 6: 54-56) Would you explain to me what this means, according to your belief that God's teachings are "black and white"? Thanks much. Tom, if you are unable to explain how these three passages are "black and white", then you must concede that the Bible is not as black-and-white as you think.

Comment on Heresy: My First Time by John Haggerty

John Haggerty — Sat, 18 May 2013 15:57:46 +0000

Dear Ron, I have no idea what you mean by your sentence, ‘This was as carnal as anything else.’ Surely you were at this point saved. You were a new creation in Christ. I am also troubled by the word ‘fundamentalist’. I understand the word was first used by the old evangelicals like Warfield and Hodge; it was their way of drawing a clear line between themselves and the modernists. (If I’m wrong about this, please correct me. I respect the depth of your historic inquiry on church matters.) The late Geoffrey W Grogan, former principal of Glasgow Bible College, published a book before his death, ‘The Faith Once Entrusted to Saints?’ (The question mark is his.) On page 20 he writes: ‘Much of our church life is experienced-based rather than truth-based.’ As you remind me (and I do need reminding) God sees into our hearts. But I am always meeting people who want to push on me the unbiblical Jesus of Deepak Chopra, or the gnostic ideas of Karen Armstrong and Elaine Pagels. (In my youth in the 1970s it was CJ Cadoux, Teilhard De Chardin, Bonhoeffer and Simone Weil, enormous figures for whom I still have much affection.) I am not thinking in terms of passing a theological examination. Indeed I would fail any such test. I am thinking of life on the street. I am thinking more like Buber who said, ‘All real living is meeting people.’ Everyone’s journey begins at a different place. Yes, I can see that this is one of the hard-won truths of our time. We all need to listen more and never to sound censorious. The crass moralising of the so-called religious right is repugnant. I know that if I were living in America I would be supporting Frank Schaeffer in so much of what he says. (I used to wish I could stand beside Grace Paley, a writer I loved, on one of her anti-war demos in New York.) Before signing off, can I recommend a recent book on the late Henri Nouwen? It’s ‘Genius Born of Anguish’ (Paulist Press) by Michael Higgins and Kevin Burns. It traces Father Nouwen’s professional association with Anton Boisen, who was something of a polymath as well as Presbyterian minister. Boisen experienced several crippling breakdowns, and ended his days in the hospital where he had been chaplain emeritus. It made me think about healing. Your own ministry has much to say about all this. Thank you for your patience and attention. JOHN.

Comment on True Religion Does Not Demand that You Believe in Heaven and Hell by tomv52

tomv52 — Sat, 18 May 2013 14:39:16 +0000

The bible is God’s word. God’s teachings are black and white. Man creates the gray areas. Jesus’ dying on the cross for our sins is not some theory. You create alot of verbage to permit yourself to call the death and resurection a theory. Then, your every interpretation of the Word becomes a perfectly acceptable theory itself. Your interpretations are obviously based strongly on love but recall Jesus did not come into this world to make bad men good. He came into this world that dead men might live. Unless one’s core faith is rooted in the sufficiency of his sacrifice upon the cross one might question whether or not he is truly Christian. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your thoughts my brother. Tom

Comment on Heresy: My First Time by Ron Goetz

Ron Goetz — Sat, 18 May 2013 02:09:17 +0000

John, thanks for your reply. There is nothing glib or shallow about summarizing Matthew 25: 31-46 in a way that crystallizes the most pertinent lesson for bookish, theology-addicted people like myself. I stand by the statement: “Jesus won’t be administering a theological or Biblical examination.”

Did you understand what I meant when I discussed journeys, that everyone’s journey begins at a different place? For example, I began my journey as a strict, fundamentalist, first-born “good boy.” This was as carnal as anything else. My friend John Meunier began his journey as a free-thinking skeptic. Even though we are similar in many ways, the intellectual and journey issues we are exploring are quite opposite. Thus, he is learning how to enter tradition, and I am learning how to leave tradition.

Fortunately, God sees the hearts. We are all in his hands. I’m comfortable with that.

Comment on Heresy: My First Time by John Haggerty

John Haggerty — Fri, 17 May 2013 21:03:18 +0000

Dear Ron, You write: ‘Jesus won’t be administering a theological or Biblical examination.’ With the greatest of respect to you, I find this glib and shallow. Glib to use the Holy Name in such a casual way (as you do when you say ‘you never forget your first time’). And shallow in your offhand attitude to all those hundreds of thousands of people studying at Bible Colleges. (As you yourself were privileged to do so.) This week I have been watching American evangelists out in the streets of my native city, Glasgow, Scotland. They have to deal with a great many articulate and well-informed hecklers. And it is their knowledge of doctrine and of systematic theology (Thiessen, Berkhof etc.) which enables them to challenge the opposition and preach the Gospel of grace. Pace Frank Schaeffer, we are NOT in a post-evangelical age. We are in the age of apostasy. The new paganism. I see it all around me. Heavens, I was a part of it myself, being converted only at the age of 57. ‘For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.’ In January, I attended a seminar on sexuality at Hillhead Baptist Church, Glasgow. The meeting did not even open with a prayer. At the end of the day those present prayed only to endorse the pagan views that had been so triumphantly aired. And they prayed to a being they addressed as ‘inclusive god’. I know of no place in the Bible where the Lord is addressed in such a term. Is ‘inclusive’ the new name for Baal? Not once in the course of that day did we hear the Biblical view of sexuality. Not once did anyone use the term ‘sin’. Liberal Christians are first-rate when it comes to empathy and understanding. Unfortunately so are scores of other agencies in the worlds of cults, therapy, counselling and New Age. What distinguished the old evangelicalism as Iain Murray called it was the preaching of Christ crucified. It was doctrine. One of my favourite preachers, Dave Hunt, who died just a month ago, wrote a book called THE SEDUCTION OF CHRISTIANITY. ‘To avoid the seduction that is at the heart of apostasy.’ he said, ‘we must be able to distinguish the voice of Christ through His word from the confusing mixture of truth and error that is spoken in his name.’ My prayers for you and your family, and for the life of your flock. JOHN

Comment on The Anti-Homosexual “Clobber Passages” by Alysia Priami

Alysia Priami — Fri, 10 May 2013 13:57:58 +0000

homosexuality is wrong. PERIOD. You don’t need the bible to see that.

Comment on Gay Nazarene Todd Clayton’s New Blog by Mark Cargill

Mark Cargill — Fri, 03 May 2013 16:53:17 +0000

I have created a group on Face Book for LGBT persons who have attended Nazarene higher education. If any of y’all are interested, please find me on f.b. and I will send you an invitation to the group.

Comment on Gay Nazarene Todd Clayton’s New Blog by Mark Cargill

Mark Cargill — Thu, 02 May 2013 23:39:59 +0000

I graduated from SNU back when it was BNC. So many of my friends came out of the closet by dying from AIDS. Shame on intolerant religious people!