Two Women Grinding Together
The second mention of same sex-couples is “two women grinding together.” A literal translation is “two [women] grinding on the same [place].” While the word “women” does not appear in the passage, we know that it is women who are grinding because the Greek word “grinding” (alEthousai) is a feminine participle.
When I researched this, I knew that I couldn’t simply import slang sexual meanings from English into a two-thousand-year-old text. Such anachronisms are totally unacceptable, as has been pointed out. So I looked for the Old Testament antecedents.
“There shall be two women grinding together.” In the Hebrew Bible, “grind” is used as an acceptable euphemism for sexual intercourse in at least four places: Job 31:10, Judges 16:21, Isaiah 47:2-3, and Lamentations 5:13. I will discuss three of them here. Job uses “grind” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse when he defends himself against his pious accuser-friends.
Grind: Job 31:10
The Book of Job is written in Hebrew poetry. Hebrew poetry does not rhyme, but is written in couplets that are usually parallel thoughts using the same number of words. Job contains these couplets:
The second line of verse 10, “let others bow down upon her” is an acknowledged euphemism for sex. For the first line, “let my wife grind unto another,” some translations supply a word like “grain” for supposed “clarification.” Many translations simply render it “grinding” (NASB, NRSV, NAB, NJB). Other translations strive to communicate the meaning of the metaphor instead of rendering it literally word-for-word. For example, the 1535 Coverdale Bible reads, “O then let my wife be another man’s harlot, and let others lye with her,” which is less literal but quite a bit clearer. The Talmud understood this instance of grind in the Book of Job as a euphemism for sex.
(The various renderings of Job 31:9-10 illustrate the difficulty Bible translators have when they translate sexual language in the face of the church’s culture-based desire for decency and propriety in the sacred scriptures. In the culture of Biblical times, grinding was a polite, acceptable euphemism, just as making love is acceptable for us today.)
Samson Grinding in Prison: Judges 16:21
The second use of “grinding” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse is in the story of Samson. Samson was a powerful warrior and a notorious womanizer. After Delilah’s betrayal and his resulting capture, Samson was made a slave by the Philistines. Near the end of his life, the Book of Judges reads, “the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house” (Judges 16:21, KJV). The Jewish Talmud understood “grind” sexually, here as well as in Job.
“Grind” means nothing else than [sexual] transgression, and thus it is stated: Then let my wife grind unto another. It teaches that everyone brought his wife to him in the
prison that she might bear a child by him [who would be as strong as he was]. (1)
Captured and blind, Samson was “put out to stud” for the wives of Philistine nobles who wanted offspring who would inherit Samson’s legendary strength. Once more we see that “grind” with the meaning of sexual intercourse was neither lewd nor obscene. It was the ordinary way that ordinary human beings spoke. It was the language of the common (koine) people. Jesus’ statement that “in that night…two women will be grinding together” is clearly an acceptable, thoroughly Biblical euphemism.
Grind: Lamentations 5:13
A third Old Testament example of “grind” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse is in the Book of Lamentations. Lamentations is a book that expresses Israel’s horror and despair over being conquered by the Babylonians. The book mentions, for example, mothers boiling and eating their own children during the siege (Lamentations 4:10; 2:20). Lamentations 5 describes the brutality of Babylon’s conquering soldiers. “Our enemies rape the women in Jerusalem and the young girls in all the towns of Judah. Our princes are being hanged by their thumbs, and our elders are treated with contempt,” (5:11-12, NLT).
The devastation is completed in verse 13: “They took the young men to grind, and the children fell under the wood,” (KJV). Young men and children are sexually assaulted. There seems to be a common unwillingness on the part of Protestant translators to clearly render the obvious sexual violation here. Catholic translators of the Douay Rhiems version, on the other hand, made the meaning clearer: “They abused the young men indecently: and the children fell under the wood.” “Taking young men to grind” refers to the rape of the young male population, which was a humiliation often inflicted on defeated enemies and had nothing to do with sexual orientation. Man-on-man rape is a well-documented phenomenon in the history of military conquest, even if most non-academics don’t know about it.
Contextual Negativity and Personal Shock
The negative contexts of these Old Testament occurrences does not negate the the fact that in Luke 17:34-35 Jesus teaches that non-celibate lesbians are acceptable to God. In fact, it’s unpleasantness may actually reinforce my thesis. I have demonstrated that “grind” was an acceptable euphemism, fit for use in the Bible, yet it may have carried negative connotations for various reasons. Even if it had had negative connotations in the popular mind, Jesus nevertheless teaches that lesbian love-making is a non-issue when it comes to who is acceptable to God and who is not. Jesus frequently made the Other the heroes of his stories.
Jesus said, “Two women shall be grinding together.” This reference to love-making will undoubtedly cause consternation for some people. It seems shocking that Jesus would use what sounds to us today like gutter language when referring to lesbian love-making. Some will say, “Paul says, ‘it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret’” (Ephesians 5:12, KJV).
The idea of Jesus uttering the words “women grinding together”can be very uncomfortable. It certainly was for me. Even though the Old Testament evidence confirmed my hypothesis, it was difficult for me to hear that lanuage coming from the mouth of Christ.
But when you remember that there is earthy language throughout the Bible, in both testaments, we get an understanding that the church’s demand for regal, solemn, respectable language is not a Biblical demand. Our personal and cultural expectations are not necessarily in sync with the scriptures. What sounds like earthy language today were, generally speaking, acceptable Biblical euphemisms.
Solomon’s love poem, the Song of Songs, is well known for its graphic descriptions of romantic love. First century Israel did not have the clinical, scientific nomenclature for sexual matters that we have today, but they did have acceptable ways to discuss these things among adults.
No, Jesus Christ was not using gutter language when he mentions “two women grinding together.” The Old Testament books of Job, Judges, and Lamentations contain the Biblical use of the metaphorical grind. Jesus used the ordinary, acceptable language of his day to refer to lesbian love-making.
So, in order, we have
- The story of the destruction of Sodom (vv 28-32)
- Two men in one bed on the night of the separation (v 34)
- Two women grinding together on the night of the separation (v 35)
The gay theme of Luke’s Small Apocalypse is beginning to really take shape. But it’s not over yet.
(1) Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sotah, Folio 10a
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Go To:
The Q Apocalypse: “Two Men in One Bed”
[To read the entire series on “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse” and the gays and lesbians in Luke, click here.]
Bible-Thumping Liberal 
Wow, I really would have thought that “grind” was just, like, with a mortar for grain, and the “in one bed” was just sleeping as many farm folks did with sharing a place to sleep. Normally I’d be a bit cynical with importing popular mindsets, but your arguments are pretty convincing (and awkward lol). Thanks.
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This is such a load of BS I cannot believe it. I’ve studied Biblical Hebrew for thirty years and this junk here is sick–I can’t even laugh it is so sick.
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Those are kind words, Bibl, very enlightening, too. I’m glad your study of Hebrew has given you facility in bringing gentle correction to those who are in error. That is a rare gift.
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This is pretty good. Some may point out that the Hebrew Scriptures never EVER come out against female on female sex, so they may note lesbian sex is immaterial in the homosexuality discussion. It is my belief that with the multiple wives that a lot of men had, the potential for menage a trois pretty much made outlawing lesbian sex (or a man being with more than one of his wives/mistresses/concubines at the same time) unrealistic. Just one more reason I think the Hebrew Law is all human and 0% God.
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Fascinating. On checking a literal translation (Young’s) I see it mentions only “grinding at the same place together”. No literal mention of grain.
The author’s addition of the phrase “at the same place together” is more perplexing, through not in any apparnet way pertinent to your thesis. It might be purposed to suggest the kind of apparent randomness soldiers describe when reporting their survival (left behind) while the soldier right next to them is killed (taken away). But then it suffice to say “grinding together” – – is this just a case of poor writing, or is some important, additional meaning embedded in “at the same place? On the face of it, it appears to be redundancy: if two people are grinding together, whether in sexual union or nearness to one another during a coffee preparation ceremony, they would seem to necessarily be at the same place! Is there any case where two people could be grinding grain together and NOT be at the same place?
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One more comment: Young’s states the two men were sharing a couch, not a bed. I am under the impression from a book containing a brief history of the development of household furniture that couches would not appear in the western world as furnishings distinguishable from and independent of beds for another 1,500 years or so. I realize this writing originates in the eastern world (from our perspective), but this nonetheless makes me wonder if the translators were trying to steer their thoughts and their readers to something more innocent sounding than what they encountered in the manuscripts.
Rob
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Rob, the NASB agrees with Young’s: “There will be two women grinding at the same place.” And the greek word for “grain,” muloni, appears in Matthew 24:41 but not in Luke 17:35.
Later on I’ll be documenting translator bias regarding verses 34-35. So the answer is a definite “Yes.” “Translators were trying to steer their thoughts and their readers to something more innocent sounding than what they encountered in the manuscripts.” That precisely true. Is it okay if I quote you?
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Ron,
This is clever, but would be more persuasive if it dealt more squarely with counter-arguments.
For instance …
Your retelling of the order of Luke 17 leaves out some details. The story of Sodom (which I assume you don’t actually think is about homosexuality) is not the first example Jesus uses. The first is Noah. If we go back to verse 26, then your gay theme is less plausible.
But beyond that, let’s look at the verses you cite themselves.
I’m confused by your inclusion of Isaiah 47 in your list, when I can’t find a single translation that renders it as anything other than a reference to grinding grain.
My Jewish Publication Society Hebrew Bible also reads both Job 31:10 and Judges 16:21 differently than your one Talmudic scholar. The sexual reading of Judges depends on a sexual reading of Job 31:10 – as your Talmudic scholar quotes it. But if you read Job 31:10 as subjecting the woman in two ways – as a servant grinding grain and a sexual slave – then both of these fail to do the work your theory requires. One Talmudic reference does a lot of work for your overall theory.
I can’t find any translation other than the D-R (including the more recent Catholic New Jerusalem) that reads Lamentations the way you do. Even the KJV does not help your case here. My JPS Hebrew Bible translates it as carrying millstones.
We also need to consider the instances of the word “grind” in both testaments that cannot possibly be pushed into a sexual meaning. There are also other references to the servants work of grinding grain that do not use the word “grind.” It turns out, the image of being forced or compelled to grind grain is a common one in the OT. It is a sign of low status or subjugation.
Finally, we can look at the parallel text in Matthew 24 where the agricultural language is more explicit.
I’m sure people with more education and knowledge than I have can point to other arguments.
Taken all together, though, it is quite possible to argue that grinding grain is in fact grinding grain. In the end, there is a certain shock value in your argument, but you don’t really confront the counter-arguments head on. That hurts your cause.
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Thanks for your feedback, John. Let me address your objections—head on.
1) I mentioned the account of Noah because it immediately precedes “two men in one bed” and explains why generations of preachers have had to disavow the sexual implications of those two men when the Sodom story has reminded us of man-on-man sex.
2) Including the Noah story does not weaken my argument. The story of Noah introduces the theme of judgment. The fact that the theme is judgment is central to my argument. You’ll remember that I wrote:
I’m sure other themes can be seen in Luke’s Small Apocalypse. I emphasize two: 1) the generally accepted theme of judgment, and 2) the acceptability of non-celibate gays and lesbians during judgment.
3) In my post I included a link to the commentary on Judges by Susan Niditch, professor at Amherst College. She writes, “As indicated by Job 31:10 and Isa 47:2-3, ‘grinding’ is a euphemism for sexual intercourse.” In her judgment, “grind” is a euphemism for sex.
4) Even if Isaiah 47:2-3 cannot be conclusively argued to have high sexual content (which I nevertheless believe is the case), the sexual use of “grind” in Job, Judges, Lamentations, and even Isaiah, has definitely been acknowledged in academic circles.
5) John, I don’t follow the logic of this comment: “But if you read Job 31:10 as subjecting the woman in two ways – as a servant grinding grain and a sexual slave – then both of these fail to do the work your theory requires.” I may be misunderstanding what you wrote. I don’t understand how you acknowledge the possibility that Job 31:10 includes the woman used both as “a sexual slave” and “a servant grinding grain,” and then say that that usage fails to support my thesis. It actually goes a long way to supporting it—demonstrating the antecedents, the close Biblical connection between grinding grain and sexual grinding.
6) Obviously there are far more instances of the non-sexual use of “grind” than there are of its sexual use. But I’m not doing a word study of all the Biblical uses of “grind.” For reasons of space and clarity, I decided not to include some of those Hebrew uses of “grind.” For example, the Bible uses “grind” literally in reference to flour, gold, and teeth, and figuratively when referring to the faces of the poor.
7) I don’t recall suggesting that every use of the word “grind” be “pushed into a sexual meaning.” And I don’t, that would be silly.
8 ) John, I ended this post with this: “The gay theme of Luke’s Small Apocalypse is beginning to really take shape. But it’s not over yet.” I uncovered evidence as strong, if not stronger, than the evidence from the Old Testament.
Thanks for mentioning Matthew 24, John. I’m going to save my response on that for a post.
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Ron, let me clarify my point about Job.
As I understand what you wrote and what your sources say, we can interpret Samson as being forced into sex because “grinding” in Job 31:10 clearly is sexual. Both your sources link Judges and Job.
But the argument that grinding in Job is sexual is far from convincing. The Old Testament is full of references to subjected people being forced to grind the grain of others. This is all by itself a degrading thing. Another degrading thing is being forced into another man’s bed.
My point is that I do not see any convincing evidence that Job 31:10 proves that “grinding” was a common euphemism for sex as Niditch asserts. Maybe she argues this point in some other publication, but in the linked book she just cites Job 31:10 and Isaiah 47:2-3 and claims that they prove Samson was forced to have sex.
Maybe there is an argument I do not know, but the claim about Job 31:10 appears to be assertion without any evidence.
If Job 31:10 is not sexual, then there is no reason to believe Judges 16:21 is as well. Your sources say Job is the reason they interpret Judges as sexual. If you knock out Job and Judges, then there is not much reason to assume Jesus was making reference to lesbians.
I have a feeling that you won’t find my critique persuasive, but I appreciate your engagement with my comments.
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The obvious flaw in this is that Luke was written in Greek not Hebrew. The OT was written in Hebrew. By the time you are comparing Greek words from the OT with Greek words in the NT you are already dealing with a translation of the OT rather than original text, and thus there will be translation errors.
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Wesley, I didn’t mention the LXX (the Greek translation of the OT), so I didn’t make the comparisons you suggested. Also, for centuries Bible scholars have used the LXX when studying the OT, as well as when they study how the NT quotes the LXX instead of the Hebrew text. The NT writers often quote from the Greek translation of the OT instead of the original Hebrew.
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To my mind the whole discussion is specious. The concept of God of homosexual acts, by either gender seems to rely on a distorted view of God as a creator/designer. From Genesis we see God as a creator, and tracing through the order and the intricacy of creation we see that He has shown a great deal of wisdom in all His creation. His design of human anatomy very clearly shows that man has been designed for intercourse with a woman. To suggest that God allowed for sexual intercourse between two men or two women seems to me to be disparaging of God. He did not allow for this in His design of human anatomy.
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Very good. I would submit to you that this is by far the most convincing case for the non-sinfulness of homosexuality I’ve ever read. However, after reviewing your work I am still on the fence about it.
It seems to me that the word grinding is what the answer hinges on. Strong’s puts it as simply grinding a millstone, and gives no room for it to be sexual. However, Plutarch’s usage is powerful and compelling evidence. So there is certainly room for it to be both sexual and used in explicit reference to lesbians.
However, I remain unconvinced for three main reasons.
First, and the weakest of the three, is the Septuagint. Grind may have a sexual connotation in Hebrew, but doing theology in English can lead to missteps in the process. In the LXX, the verses you mentioned referencing grind in a sexual manner do not all have the same word used in Luke 17:35. It may be grind in English, and it may have a sexual connotation, but the Greek is not the same, so the parallel between the Old Testament usage of the word grind and this one seems weak to me. However, Plutarch suggests strongly otherwise, so this is really just a neutral hang up. While it remains neutral, I would rather default to tradition.
The second reason is that of Matthew. You mentioned that, of course, the intended audiences and focuses are different. However, taking different theological concepts from those different focuses strikes me as shaky. Luke may not include “at the mill,” but I am very skeptical of any attempt to say that Luke left out “at the mill” in order to make a wholly different theological point. Matthew’s seems clearly to be that of mundane activity, and I cannot imagine Luke taking Jesus’ words and changing their meaning, especially in the context of the same speech.
The third reason is the context and thought process of the whole passage. Given the mention of Sodom and Gomorrah, it would seem that your outline of Jesus’ point fits. However, this isn’t recounted in Matthew, and the final sentence in Luke doesn’t fit with your model. In Luke there are five “clauses” Jesus recounts, and your contextual analysis fits with only the middle three. If grinding is referring to lesbian intercourse, then the reference to Lot, the two men in a bed, and the two women grinding all fit into a sexual narrative of sorts. However, the reference to Noah and to the two men in a field seem to fall as outliers. They don’t quite fit.
The reading of the passage should truly begin in verse 20. Jesus is asked about the Kingdom. He then says that there will be no signs of it, and people will not be able to point it out. He then compares it to lightning. Then the first clause: Noah. The people were eating, drinking, and making merry, when suddenly they were wiped out. The second clause is Lot. They were eating, drinking, buying, and selling, when suddenly they were wiped out. The third and fourth clause could either be sexual or mundane. The men could be sleeping or having sex, and the women could be grinding a mill stone or having sex. Given that in the fifth clause, the two men in a field are participating in a mundane activity, it would seem to me that the passage reads much more smoothly as a warning. The mention of Sodom and Gomorrah is important, but all five clauses seem to be saying that people will be participating in mundane, or everyday, activities when the “days of the Son of Man” come upon them suddenly.
However, this is not enough to say unequivocally that the context forbids grinding as a sexual term. But comparing the passage to its parallel in Matthew convinces me (for now) that it does not refer to a sexual action. In Matthew there are only three clauses, but they all represent mundane activities. It seems to me that this clearly supports the case for a parallel interpretation of Luke.
I thank you for your work. It was really a pleasure reading, and it is quite convincing. As I am right now, I cannot say you are unequivocally incorrect, but I do remain unconvinced and I think that a different interpretation fits the text much much more sufficiently.
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Stuart, thanks for your careful consideration of what I’ve presented. Few people take the time to consider the case as carefully as you have.
The broad theme of the passage is judgment, so there is no problem with the lack of sexual material in the account of Noah. What Noah, Lot, and the four gays and lesbians have in common is the theme of utter normality. No reasons are given for God’s judgment in any of the sections, which has always been a puzzle for interpreters. The reason no reason is given for judgment is because the exact opposite is the lesson of the passage. It is designed to actually eliminate a popular reason: homosexuality.
The third pair — two men in a field — are not original to Luke. They were borrowed from Matthew by a later copyist. and do not appear in the earliest mss. So I don’t discuss them here.
Given the complexity of the synoptic problem, I don’t think it can be determined whether Matthew or Luke was written first, or how much interaction occurred before the text settled in their present form. Thus, it can’t be determined whether Matthew added the word “mill” or Luke deleted it. At this point, I can only proceed with the text in its present state.
I accept the two-source syoptic hypothesis, with Q and Mark as the sources used by Luke and Matthew. As reconstructed by Kloppenborg, Luke’s small apocalypse is devoid of numerous later additions which have obscured the meaning of this passage for two millenia. Please check out my post on the Q Source: https://biblethumpingliberal.com/2011/06/11/q-apocalypse-criteria-acceptability/
It is significant to me that Mark and Matthew each have one apocalypse (Mark 13 and Matthew 24), while Luke has two (Luke 21 and 17). Very significant. And Luke’s small apocalypse is what I call “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse.”
Some Q scholars believes that the Q Apocalypse in Luke 17 was the last material to accrete itself to the Q tradition. I believe the careful parallel structure of Luke’s small apocalypse (the descriptions of the days of Noah and Lot) and the parallel structure of the two couples has been carefully crafted in a literary manner, and may or may not reflect the actual words of Jesus. The passage does, nevertheless, reflect a very early account of Jesus’ acceptance of gays and lesbians.
The ambiguity of the passage, that is, the fact that it can be easily interpreted non-sexually as well as sexually, was deliberate. I’m sure you are aware of the persistent controversy surrounding Jesus’ perceived softness on immorality seen in the Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53-8:11). Some early church fathers objected to the inclusion of the passage. Similarly, if the Luke 17 passage had not been ambiguous, it would have been eliminated quite early by scribal copyists. The fact that the passage was peppered through with Jesus sayings that offered numerous easily grasped and less controversial preaching points helped get the original gay themed material to “get past the censors.”
It was solution of the synoptic problem and the likelihood of the Q Source that made “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse” more discernible.
Stuart, thanks again for your careful reply.
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so are saying homosexuals will make it to heaven
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That’s what I’m saying, Michael.
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I believe Jesus if referring to gay rape in Luke 17. He said it would be better to have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown in the ocean than to cause one of my little ones to sin. Then referred to Sodom where the demanded lot give them the young men who had come to town so they could rape them. I believe the one taken and fed to the vultures is the rapist forcing homosexuality on an innocent.
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Jason, I assume you are talking about Luke 17: “Two men will be in one bed; one will be taken, the other left.”
I would simply point out to you that there is no hint of violence, force, or rape in the verse. In the parallel verse, two women grinding together in the same place, there is also no hint of violence, force, or rape.
It seems to me that you are reading forcible rape into the verse, that “rape” is not in the verse itself.
The “millstone” reference, while in a some proximity, is still fairly distant from the passage we’re discussing.
The greek word aetoi can be translated either eagle or vulture, having either positive and negative connotations respectively.
The idea of someone being “fed to the vultures” is interesting, but verse 37 talks about aetoi gathering around a body, but not a (dead) body being “fed to the vultures.”
The main problem I see is that verses 34 and 35 refer to two men in the same bed and two women grinding together, with no hint of force, violence, or wrongdoing.
It definitely looks like “consenting adults” to me.
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ABSOLUTELY FALSE TEACHING ! HOMOSEXUALS WILL TRY ANYTHING TO MANIPULATE THE WORD OF GOD.
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Lee, you made an interesting assumption here.
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1 Corinthians 6 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
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Very good, Lee. Have you heard the one about the monogamous married couple?
Leviticus 20:18
“If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”
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Romans 1:27
“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”
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Here’s another one, Lee.
I Corinthians 14:34
“Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.”
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I’m about 6 years late to the party here, but felt I should comment 🙂 I really hope you get to read this!
I was reading this passage during a quiet time tonight, and I wanted to see some of the terminology in its original language. I Was doing research, and stumbled across this article. I found it to be out of context, and not actually interpreting what scripture is talking about. Below is a brief explanation of what is actually being told.
The word grind in Luke 17:35 is the Greek word aletho (strongs g229). It is used 3 times in all of scripture, and they all are about grinding grain. In that time it was typically womens work to grind grain, and they would often do it in pairs. The parallel passage to luke 17:35 is actually Matthew 24:41, which in his account includes “at the mill” for further context. There is nothing sexual in this context. As for Luke 17:34, The word for men is epi (strongs g1909), which does not literally translate to man, but to people, or persons. It is given a masculine emphasis because it is referring to if the man will be taken or left. This is talking about the fact that two people (biblical marriage) can be close, but at the time of judgement will be separated because one did not believe.Sodom is mentioned not because of homosexuality, but because his wife looked back to the city, and died because of it. It is saying that we need to look to the kingdom of God, not the things of this world. When the time comes, we need to be looking to Jesus, not trying to protect our earthly possessions.
As for the old testament references, again the word grind is not sexual. Job 31:10, Isaiah 47:2, and Judges 16:21 the word is the Hebrew word takhan (strongs h2911). It is used 8 times through our the old testament, and is in the context of grinding a grain. Lamentations 5:13 is the Hebrew word techown (strongs h2911), and this is actually the only verse it is used. It translates to hand mill, mill, or grinding mill. None of these are actually sexual. But all refer to grinding/crushing grain.
I think a lot of times we can take scripture out of context and try to apply it to our current situation, but remember, context is king! Hope this helps you understand what the passage is actually saying here!
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for the careful reply. I have posted quite a bit on Luke 17:34-35. There are lengthy posts on the sexual use of grind in ancient languages, including Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. This includes articles, and detailed discussion threads, on the sexual use of grind in Hebrew.
You can view a list of the articles by clicking here
Your research demonstrates the seriousness with which you take this topic. I hope my posts give you something to consider.
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God is not confused. He is the same god who has never change. He would not call two men or women laying together an abominatio then later says he will take kne to heaven. You are in total erro and the devil has ur mind twisted!
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You read this passage completely incorrectly. “Grinding,” means at a mill, working, grinding grain at a mill together. The Lord desires marriage The originally intended way, man and woman. A christian caught in a lesbian relationship is living in unrepentant sin.
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Andrew, the word “mill” or “grain” does not appear in Luke 17:35. Matthew has the word “muloni” (mill), but Luke does not.
A similar situation exists between Luke 6:20 and Matthew 5:3. Luke reads, “Blessed are the poor” but Matthew reads, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. You can’t just add “in spirit” to Luke 6:20. There IS a difference.
Andrew, please look at Luke 17:34 (KJV) in context. Luke 17:28-29 talks about Lot and the destruction of Sodom. Luke 17:34 talks about “two men in one bed.” The next verse is “two women will be grinding together.” And it’s all happening “at night.” So, in context: 1) Lot and Sodom, 2) “in that night”, 3) “two men will be in one bed”, and 4) “two women will be grinding”.
It’s generally a good idea to begin with what is actually written in the Bible, then later on come up with your theology.
Andrew, I suspect you and I will both die with unrepented sins. Maybe we will even know what they are.
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Hi Ron,
I’m just sounding the alarm to you, the strong delusion is happening now, there is a satanic attack on the Bible, especially on the KJV, supernatural changes to the written Word of God. Other translations will be effected later on. I can’t bear witness to 17:34, cause i don’t remember it well, I just know it wasn’t written as it is now. I heard some say it was a man and a woman in one bed.
For 17:35 I definitely remember ‘grain’ in there (in the KJV), there are a few other translations that still has the ‘grain’ for now: https://biblehub.com/luke/17-35.htm
God warned us about these changes to happen that will cause the great falling away.
Revelation 22 (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Jude (KJV)
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Take to heart Ron, sincerely, that you actually believe, for years now, that gays and lesbians will inherit the Kingdom of God. For it is no so.
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Thank you for the warning, Oren. I’m not willing to engage in a Bible-verse contest, but I would point you to several things in the Bible.
“Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.” (Matthew 18:14)
“He is the atoning sacrifice for all our sins, and not only ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (I John 2:2)
“For God has bound all people over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (Romans 11:32)
“At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:10-11)
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10)
You have chosen your favorite verses to share, and I have chosen some of mine.
May God grant you the same sense of satisfaction that I wish for myself.
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I know this is kind of off topic since it’s not a textual argument, but to me the argument that Jesus was referring to non-sexual cohabitation in :34 implies He was either not speaking of a time either modern or yet future, or He had no knowledge of the future, for the practice of adults sharing beds without having sex has very much abated today.
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You obviously have NO understanding. The law says differently. We are all (especially the descendants of Israel) bound by The Law! Any deviation from that, is transgression. It is written that the gentiles have not the law…All who transgress the Law will be cut off (for us); all others; hell.
[Edited for length.]
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Hi there ! I’m starting my journey with Christ and started in the gospels with Matthew and in the New Living Translation it says “Two women will be grinding flour at the mill” I just wanted to make sure I was not taking it out of context !
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Brianna, I have answered this in a post. Excellent comment.
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Question: does grinding ever refer to work? In some translations it says grinding at the mill. So I thought it was just two women working together. What’s you’re take? And is “at the mill” a type of idiom?
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Matthew 24.41 KJV clearly states
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left.
Hence at the mill. Check your Strongs concordance in Greek.
Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
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Hey Tim,
I think you’ve picked up a bad habit. It isn’t appropriate to mix-and-match different Bible accounts.
For example, Luke has one version of this, “Blessed are the poor.” Matthew is different. “Blessed are the poor in spirit.”
Being poor is different from being poor in spirit.”
The churches would cry out in protest of a Bible translator added the words “in spirit” to the Luke version.
In the Greek, Luke 17:35 does not have the word mill, or muloni.
Tim, there is a reason why Luke 17:34-35 has been such a mystery all these centuries.
To understand what it means, I invite you to re-read the post, and read some of the 20+ other posts which explain the evidence for the trial.
https://biblethumpingliberal.com/2020/10/06/a-list-of-posts-on-the-trial-of-the-gay-jew-jesus/
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For Luke 17: 35 the greek word for grindding is only used 3 times in the bible ecc 12: 4, mk 24:41 and lk 17:35 and it’s meaning grinding meal, not sexually. Also where yours may say 2 men in a bed is also incorrect, you should make sure you find a bible translated from the originally tongues. In the orginally greek text it doesn’t give a gender it simple says “I say to you, in this the night will be two on bed one, the one will be taken along and the other will be sent off”. Also this is not the rapture this is the end, the coming of Christ like in the days of Lot. One will be taking up to judgement and the Greek word for sent off stands for “I send off, I forgive”. So that person will be forgiving just as Lot was sent off before Sodom was taking down by judgement. Remember the devil is really and tries to destroy the true words of God, so be careful what bible your reading, I hope you find a good Greek and Hebrew concordance that will assist you in your study. God bless.
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You fools.
Grinding at the mill. They were grinding food, like wheat or corn.
Two men… two human kind. And it doesn’t even say the same bed. You infer which that you DESIRE to see because your desires are evil.
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Galicia, I know why you say they were grinding wheat or grain, but those words are not in the Greek original of Luke 17:34-35.
“Two men shall be in one bed;
The one shall be siezed and the other let go.
Two women shall be grinding together;
The one shall be siezed, and the other let go.”
(Darby)
No “grain” or “wheat” or “mill”. Just two women grinding together. And that is parallel with “two men in one bed”.
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What a stupid interpretation the two men in bed are either brothers or cousins or a father and a son how and grinding at a mill stupid a MILL is where you would actually physically grind grain that should tell you right there that it’s grinding grain because there’s a MILL present that it’s really grinding grain you really should repent and get your mind cleaned out the Bible is not about sex
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