PDF of Debate Over the Law Free from Sermon Index

Debate over Paul’s Abolition of the Law

A few years ago I engaged in a prolonged debate with some of the folks over at Sermon Index. One of the topics included Paul’s cancellation of the Torah.

Free PDF of Debate Available at Sermon Index

The folks at SI have been kind enough to offer a complete record of the Torah skirmish without charge. If you’d like to download the free 36-page PDF, click here.

For a list of my posts discussing Paul’s cancellation of the Torah, click here

Galatians 5  12

About Ron Goetz

My first wife used to say, "There's nothing so sacred that Ron won't pick it apart." My desire to be a pastor -- that was a temperamental mismatch. She was so patient. If my birth mother had lived somewhere else, maybe I would've become a cold case detective. But I would have had to be J instead of a P, I think. And that mid-life reevaluation, starting adolescence as a GARB fundamentalist and transitioning to a non-theist, that gave me an unusual skill set.
This entry was posted in Homosexuality and the Bible, Leviticus and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

2 Responses to PDF of Debate Over the Law Free from Sermon Index

  1. David Watson says:

    I read the PDF file you left of SI (who ever they are). Lets just say it was emotionally draining. It’s the same emotionally draining I get from other so called Saints. I get the same attacks you got, and I am not sure how to handle them.

    What happen to the first and second commandment of Christ in all those post? Matthew 22:34-40 – what about Matthew 22:40? : that “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments”? Everybody wants to quote paul but why do they fail to quote what christ had to say? Like what paul had to say was more important than what Christ had to say. There are four places where Christ condemns people to hell, none of them are over someone being gay. One is over blasphemy of the holy spirit (Matthew 12:22-32). One the people involved think they have Christ in a box Matthew (Matthew 7:21-23). One is in refusing to give a cup of water to a stranger, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and visiting someone in need( Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV). Where is that in anything the people over SI had to say?

    For me, everything comes back to Christ commandments and that 22:40. The law and everything else has to be filtered through verse 40. I have several people over on facebook that dismiss what I point out, but then want me to listen to them because they think the Holy Spirit has talked to them and told them ‘X’. Like your holy huddle over at SI, mine can’t talk or speak original language of the bible, but they sure think they can. I am also a fan of Scott Peck. His “People of the Lie”, and “Further Along The Road Less Traveled” has help me in understanding of the SI types. But mostly I think they are stuck in second stage.

    I come at this issue through my experience of my step sister. She is schizophrenic. We had a lot of people say a lot of cruel things to her about her issue, including if she just read her bible, or pray hard enough God would cure her. God did not. Or it was her sin that caused this, or if she repented of ‘x’ God would cure her. OR it was the sin of one of her parent. Think of Jobe so called friends- yeah that’s what we got. It put her through hell trying to please God. She is still schizophrenic, and mostly lost her mind do to all the drugs they have given her. I am only her step brother. My bio-grandparents would go visit her. The only ones in the family because people/family thought they could catch it by being near her. YEAH in this day in age.

    What I learn from it? I learned most of what people said was bull shit. After a while my grandparents stopped going to see her, because God did not cure her with all the religious bull crap that they said to her. Am I saying I don’t believe John 3:16? NO. AND Am I saying I don’t believe God cant cure? NO, I am saying I don’t believe in man and man’s militant ignorance. God never meant to cure my sister. He meant for us to love her unconditionally- Love your neighbor as Christ has loved you. That’s what they could not do over at SI. Their actions says they cant do ST John version of the second commandment- John 13:34-35. Sad part was my grandparents never learn that lesson either. BTW- one of the problems with SI is not what really happens between gay people in bed, but what they think happens in gay people’s bed. Problem is the Bible doesn’t really define what really goes on in people’s bed. They cant even fathom that Paul may have been talking about temple prostitution. But then again Paul’s argument for slavery was used to justify the Bouthern Baptist argument for slavery. The American or North Baptist argument was the historicist of Christ, where the early church elders (which you will not find in the Bible) said you could not own your brother in Christ (180 Deg from the Southern dogma). I just find this so draining. I am agreeing with Peck, I just don’t have time for this crap (see further along the roadless traveled.


    • Ron Goetz says:

      David, I don’t think many people waded through the PDF the way you did. Thanks.

      We can only endure protracted conflict with the kinds of people we’re talking about before it becomes pointless. After a point it becomes obvious that their eyes are blinded and their ears are stuffed with wax. Basically, you do your best, and walk away before they destroy your soul.

      Loving the incurably ill is difficult. And it is complicated when our faith in God’s ability to heal is mixed up in it. It’s hard to witness those situations.

      I’m glad you have survived these challenges, and I hope you will continue your journey to health and wholeness. Health and wholeness are just part of what the Jewish greeting “shalom” include. Blessings, David.


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